Response to comments
So yesterday “lulu” (who in the world is lulu?) posted a comment on my Shoutbox: “you are so obsessed with success it scares me.” To which “djian” (at least I know where you were from) responded, “oh yes, lulu he is very obsessed with education so much so that it makes me wonder whether ppl without edu are idiots”
A good response to djian from me would be, “Some people with no formal higher education are so successful in their careers and lives that they put those who have higher education to shame.” Abraham Lincoln only had 18 months of formal education, Micheal Dell never finished freshman year in University of Texas, Steve Jobs never graduated from university, Lim Goh Tong of Genting never finished school, and the list goes on to the tens of thousands. Yes I may seem to be “obsessed” with a formal university education but that does not mean that those without a degree are idiots. But djian used the phrase “people without education are idiots.” First of all, education is not about going to college, university, etc. The degree raises you to a level of competency or a higher platform and it is the only way for medical and law students to become doctors and lawyers. But never equate not having a higher education to being idiots. You will be surprised that there are many “idiots” who are much more well off than the real idiots with a higher education but think that they are so darn good and lofty, and have no need to improve themselves, thus they become contented.
Now, having said that education is about lifelong learning. Not everyone can be a success story like the personalities above. If you wanna do something, but don’t have the right skills or education, then go out there and source for the right people who have the information you want. Or read up on your own and learn from people by working for them first. By doing the above you are giving yourself an education which not many university students can have. You learn networking, people interaction, negotiation, and most importantly you learn from failures and try innovation approaches. You get shot down numerous times but you just stand up again and retry. These are things no formal education can teach you. The only reason you cannot do something is because your mind said so. So djian, never look down on anyone (including yourself) who do not have any or much formal education. Education does not equal formal education. But you must be willing to learn in the first place, because at the end of the day there is no doubt that education is important, and education is definitely more than the mindless memorizing of the many stuff which we cram into our heads for an examination. We live in Asia where people tend to look at such things but one has to realise that education is not about the paper qualifications either.
My response to lulu would be that she is not wrong to say so but perhaps obsession is too strong a word. I am not a heartless and loveless soul moving about everyday thinking about winning and getting higher in this and that and looking for ways to constantly go above the competition, and thinking that life is about nothing but winning. I don’t even know how you came to such a conclusion. Maybe it’s because I think aloud in my blog and what I get really uncertain about anything I’ll just pour it our here. And so recently the subject has been my education. In fact, I am more like a person who gets up in the morning with a lot of doubt in his head, and whispers telling me to just let it go and stop dreaming so big. From your comment what really is the definition of Success? Everyone in the world thinks of money, position, fame, power, adoration, etc as Success. But I think that Success can be defined as attaining our fullest potential and fulfilling the purpose that God has placed in each and every one of us. With that definition I fully accept your comment and take it as a compliment. I am VERY OBSESSED in doing what I am placed here on this earth to do. And why should obsession with Success scare you? Why should you feel intimidated or small by someone else? Are you afraid of Success? Are you afraid of redeeming the time to be fruitful and produce a harvest that can bless others?
As of now I am not sure whether my dream is really God’s will or not but certainly the desire is there. And as Kevin said do what you LOVE doing. I think that is critical to Success, for God will not give you a purpose that you would not love to do. Having said that things are never easy so train your mind to think of empowering thoughts instead of pulling yourself down with self-doubt which will do no one any good.
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quoted frm nelson mandela:
“Our worst fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, ‘Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented and fabulous?’ Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God; your playing small doesn’t serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won’t feel insecure around you. We were born to make manifest the glory of God within us. It is not just in some of us, it is in everyone, and as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people premission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”
awesome quote there. have no shame in shining your light as a beacon for others to follow.
From shoutbox:
Inconsistent Christian:
Matthew 19:21 Jesus: If thou wilt be perfect, DO NOT go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven
Inconsistent Christian:
Jesus would totally spend 500k ringgit (as opposed to free education) instead of giving it to save lives of starving people in Africa.
By god’s will and creation, the bible hath sowed hatred and death. The Holy Crusade, the Inquisition.. By the grace of god, many walked in bloodshed
i see god in stillborn babies, hurricane-torn homes, the deformed and mangled. God endowed me the gift of reason. I disbelief god too by god’s will.
continuing from the shout out box issue, i have lived a good life with very little trouble even without a religion. i think ppl use religion as an excuse over and over again.
when you fail, you say God wants it this way
when you succeed, you say God gave it to you,
i mean come on! only a pre school kid will use that, as a grown up teen you should know whats happening around you. my advice to you is make up your mind and get on with life instead of fretting/quoting bible phrase. go out and socialise more you will see a better picture. and please lar when you socialise talk about something other than education lar, you learn faster that way
djian: Haha… djian I used to be a Christian but now I’m just a freethinker just like you (of course some Christians out there reading this will be thinking “If you’re a Christian and truly understand God you wouldn’t have lost faith”. Please spare me those lectures. I assure you I really was a Christian).
I’m not saying that what you’re saying is entirely wrong. But you see, different people look into different things for guidance and comfort. People like us prefer to face things directly (in a way) and just accept whatever that comes along happens as just an individual event influenced by decisions made by others or the force of nature. I don’t believe it’s wrong for them to quote the Bible or look into it for guidance as for many, it had proven to be a very good source of inspiration and for people to seek improvement as well.
Like I said… different people have different opinions and methods. So far I haven’t come to a conclusion on which is the absolute best and which isn’t. I’m only following the path which I feel most comfortable with.
wow now my blog has turned into a debating field about Christianity. unfortunately no amount of debate (at least not at my current level of argument skills) can bring you to believe in God or Jesus. it is never always a clear cut “aha” academic truth. it is a step of faith, but perhaps you may wonder why so many people around you are Christians, and yet they are all very secure about themselves and have something called faith and hope in their lives. and also most of the time they like to talk about it (like me)
@djian: First of all let me state that Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship with God. But over the centuries many other versions of religion has emerged, causing Christianity to be perceived as just another religion. yeah, your life may be good, but are you sure that you did not sin along the way? Are you blameless? Do you not believe in a God? Read “God, The Evidence” or “The Case for a Creator” for some insights on why God DOES exist.
But I believe that it is not very right to just say that God wants it this way when we fail, or that God gave it to us when we succeed. Yes it might have been in His plan, but essentially one has to work for what he reaps. The Bible talks about sowing and reaping. It also talks about the importance of having diligence. It says that the lazy man would be left in poverty. Essentially it is saying that you have CHOICES such that you can control your life to a certain extent. God is not to be blamed when we screw up and fail. But God is there to strengthen us in His people’s works.
To your third paragraph I must say that there are millions of blogs out there and if you find what I write here boring you are very welcome to stop patronizing this blog. And are you are implying that because I believe in God I am being a small child, and that as a teen I am not knowing what is happening around me? That is full of crap. Trusting God does not remove my ability to think and make my own decisions. In fact, my trust in Him builds up my ability to make wiser decisions and live my life with more energy and power supplied from God above. I know that I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
Are you also saying that I am trapping myself at home and not socializing just because I like to quote bible phrases? I think that sounds really absurd to me. I am also out there in the marketplace doing everything that a normal guy is doing.
And I’m sorry but at this point of my life, and at this very juncture I am concerned about education simply so I tend to write more about it. This is my blog anyway.
@Guest & Inconsistent Christian: I understand your disagreements and can see your reasons for not wanting to believe in a God. You see, in fact this is rather important to be observed, suffering brings us closer to God. Imagine a perfect world where everyone is able to make their own choices, and EVERYONE is rich and happy. If you were God and you created this bunch of people on Earth who now says that they don’t need you as their God anymore since they have everything that they need, then won’t you as the God who created all these people feel sad because you have been neglected? There are reasons for suffering in this world. It reminds us that we need God. We need to believe in Him and trust Him.
The Holy Crusade: I read the book “The Case for Faith” and it illustrated that in fact the Holy Crusade was initiated by Christians who warred against the non-Christians at that time. I am now going to state a very startling fact for many of you reading here: not all Christians who call themselves Christians are really doing what is right that should be done as a Christian. People can be Christian by name, because their family was Christian, or because their Government is Christian, etc. They claim to do things in the name of Christianity but in actual fact they are defaming the name of God by doing things against God’s will. Remember that just because someone says that they are Christians do not make them real Christians. They may claim to do things in the name of Christ, but in actual fact it is not right for them to do so.
And yes, about my education, perhaps RM500 K would be better spent giving away to the poor right now, but I think with the education I can earn and give more that the initial seed of RM 500 K planted for a university education in the future for the rest of my life. Sow 500K now, reap and give away more than 500K later. It is an investment. In the Parable of the Talents the servants did not give away the talents to the poor right away, but they went and invested it such that they had more in the future (hopefully to be a blessing to others)
i didnt say i havent made mistakes/sin b4. as a matter of fact i did, it thought me things i learnt from it, shapes me. and blameless…hmmm, i have been blamed b4 and i have blamed ppl b4. nothing special, immuned to it. no i dont believe in God because if i did i probably spend more time in cell group/church than going out for Sunday dim sum or doing something more productive……
no wonder pastors drive MB S-class. they seem to making use of mules like you to drive their agenda. no offense but i have spoken to a pastor that tells me how good his life because of you peeps. btw he drives a Porsche and owns a waterfront house.
Ernsheong outta open a forum for these kinda debates. =.=”
Djian: No point talking about that actually… people will just tell you that maybe that pastor himself is corrupted.. or not all pastors are like that. (which is really true)
If we wanna talk bad things about pastors and fathers we can even talk about the “child *ahem* issue”. =S
Ernie: God “wants” people to not neglect her. Hence creates suffering so people turn to her in worship. 1st, you assume you know what god “desires” (basically you’re inferencing from your non-godlike perspective). We can’t know. What we do have is a sense of good and evil. A good king would not kill people to induce worship. That’s command through fear, not love. At least we know god is not “good” or “loving” in our limited sense. Perhaps we should not help in disaster relief since those people in need would better turn to god in prayer.
2nd, heaven is a perfect place. Why not create a heaven on earth? If the reason is that that would cause followers to turn from god, then isn’t the idea of heaven itself flawed, since perfect paradise would not exist in god’s plan?
Stop inventing excuses for yourself. Does buying a macbook help you make more money? Do the dying/starving not require your financial aid more ? Are they not equally or more deserving than you, as children of god? You are offered a free education in Singapore. That’s 500k that could be invested or donated. Why desire to be an exploitative cog in the corporate wheel? Why not be a missionary, saving lives?
oh and Ernsheong.. is it really necessary to have the music. I know I can just off my speakers but I don’t like it for 2 reasons:
1. Taking up my extra bandwidth…
2. The music isn’t streaming properly.. it stops to buffer every 3 secs.
Haha… just a feedback from me. =)
I do not believe that what a person writes on his blog is a full representation of who he is. Just because he happens to write about his university choices doesn’t mean that’s all he’s about. It’s a stage in life many people are going through, and seriously EVERYONE who’s applying for university probably has the same blog content.
I agree with you totally Ern Sheong. It’s not about copping out and blaming failures and successes on God’s plans. God has a plan but the plan is nothing if you yourself play no part in it. Life as a Christian gives you God as support, it doesn’t make you passive, waiting for the inevitable to happen to you.
I don’t know anything about your decision to go to US instead of Singapore. But if God’s plans were all about sacrificing your dream for a 2nd dream, we’d all be going for cheaper options in everything, just to give away all our spare money to the poor. And when all that money runs out, the poor isn’t gonna get any richer. It doesn’t make sense to me if everyone ends up taking up scholarships they have no interest in for the sake of a supposed ‘Christian self-sacrificial act’.
There is no one pathway in life. And seriously, don’t judge a person (especially one you don’t know) if you ain’t perfect yourself.
aLe, please do not profess to know what god’s plans are. all we can claim to know is an indirect means through interpretation of the bible (also not a primary source definitely). It seems to me that the Christian thing to do would be to maximise the lives and standard of living of all sons of god. It is clear to me that that involves frugal spending. Rejecting a free education to splurge on another which costs 500k (provides no discernible direct or indirect benefit to the poor which outweighs the extravagance), when you could save lives with that money seems hypocritical. Self-sacrifice IS the ultimate love for one’s neighbour as one would oneself.
There is only one pathway to god. Perhaps this is also a will of god?
hahahhaha….Vic you are still as dirty minded as you are today. anyway yeah the child abuse issue by pastors and fathers are always a fun way to poke fun if you know what i mean. its always funny how girls always tell me “OMG!! *sweats* the altar boys are sooo HOT!!” and of course even the pastors couldnt keep their hands of them…LOL!!
K I’ve known Ernie for bout a decade now ,and I can ensure you that he’s not all about the books la.. I mean,yeah he probably studies WAYYYYYYY more than the average Joe, but he does do other stuff as well. And come on, he’s going to Berkerly, are you really gonna begrudge him all that studying.
On the other hand, religion and Christianity is way,way,way overrated.
@Vic: ok music auto-play turned off. click to listen
@Guest: I am not professing that I know God’s will and plans. His plans and thoughts are higher than mine. NO ONE can understand them, nor comprehend what is happening from the beginning to the end of time.
you like to write in a sarcastic tone. anyway perhaps you can look into your own life and experience how a failure or downfall or suffering has eventually made you a much more mature person. It is not all that bad. And you talked about the sense of right and wrong. Well no one debated and came up with a list of rules of what is right or wrong. It is innate in all of us. There is no debate whether sexual immoralities/lying/theft/etc.etc. is right or wrong. We all know that it is wrong. Hence one can argue that all of us has God’s innate nature of right and wrong is inside of us. So your point also points toward God’s existence.
You like to talk about my intentions as wrong and unholy and try to condemn me back with my own actions. So am I supposed to empty my bank account right now, and every time I receive a pay check I should give 100% to the beggar down the street? Isn’t that kinda stupid? There is a difference between being wise and being foolish. So if God wants me to study in Berkeley so that I can serve Him better later on what can you say about it? The LOVE of money is what God is not happy about. Not money. I need money, but I don’t worship it as a God, or focus too much on it and neglect to put God as my first priority.
@djian: pastors are humans too. everyone is fallible. even pastors can be blinded by their newly attained status and wealth later on. but you cannot generalize like that. not all pastors are like that. I personally don’t like it too when pastors start flaunting their wealth like that.
And returning to my earlier point, just because a person who calls himself/herself a Christian or even Pastor does something wrong, you cannot argue that all Christians are like that. Though I must say that Christians should always strive to live a right life. However, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, Christian or non-Christian. That’s why we need Jesus Christ who died for us on the Cross for an atonement of sins for the entire mankind. And it is by the blood of Jesus that all of us are saved.
——–
you like to bash Christianity and Christians. I will continue to stand here and defend Christ. Perhaps you would like to research about the story of Jesus. Did He really walk this earth or was He a story made up by man? You can read “The Case for Jesus Christ” as a starting point. And of course, the summary of the book is that He really did. He came, He died, He rose from the dead and He will come again.
I’m trying to figure out how a post on education became a debate on the truth behind Christianity
It’s simple. The person talking about the education is a Christian.
you can keep standing and defending, i go to bed and get some sleep first. seriously lar dont be like Ben Yue always procrastinating, if you read his blog it’s so mundane. everytime something happen he go read bible lar, pray more, praise God etc. after that he does it all over again. ernie i wish you all the best but you should focus more on your life than worship. i didnt say praying is bad or having a religion but relying heavily on it has its consequence. you might not see it now but you would see it some day. cheerz
@djian: well if you think that my life is less colourful because I pray, worship, read bible, etc. then you are really wrong. My life has never been more colorful than before. Yeah you are right, relying on prayer has powerful consequences. Lives are changed, situations are changed for the better. I will definitely see it some day. I am not impoverished by all this, but rather I am enriched. Don’t close yourself to this. You will realize one day (and I pray that you do) that all this makes sense.
Nitez
Whose djian actually?
And anyway yea I’ve got to agree, we shouldn’t get so bogged down with referring every event to God. Sooner or later, God is gonna get fed up of us talking bout him constantly. As for Christianity by itself, let’s just respect Ern Sheong beliefs in it, even though we may seriously disagree with it. As long as he follows it rationally and with common sense, what more can we ask for
Well I have to agree to some extend on what djian pointed out. Falling back to God and the Bible every single time when you face a problem might simply just make you a person who relies too much on it. In fact, I do think some (I said some.. not generalizing) Christians rely too much on God. 8/10 times I go to a church I would hear pastors or fathers preaching out and asking questions like ‘If there is no God, what’s the purpose of living?’. To me that sentence alone shows how shallow some Christians can be and I do feel somewhat insulted at times. So are freethinkers suppose to go die because we don’t have a religion? Freethinkers do have their reasons for living. haha… Hopefully I hope Ernsheong here isn’t one of them who thinks that way.
I agree with what Nimalan says lor.. Ernsheong don’t seem to be running around with a Cross pointing it to everyone. He has his faith as his guidance and he wants to share it with others because to him, it’s something worth sharing which is the love of God.
So… the thing is… this is a blog where you are free to leave any of your comments. No one can stop you..(ernsheong can remove your posts though) you can continue to make your point and ernsheong can continue to make his BUT it’s never gonna end. haha
Your lack of critical thinking ability astounds me. You managed to sidestep my critiques with red herring arguments.
Let us settle on one contentious point. You choose not to donate your money (500k is not all your money. you will still have a much higher than average standard of living and an excellent education without going to Berkeley). The bible denounces your unholy act.
If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? (1 John 3:17)
All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need. (Acts 2:44-47)
Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:42)
Give to everyone who begs from you, and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again. (Luke 6:30)
If you have the means of wordly life and see your brother in need, yet close your heart to him, how does the love of God remain in you? Let your love not be in words on the tongue, but in action and in truth (1 John 3:17)
The bible beseeches Christians to give to the needy, everything but what you need (not 100%). Anything you hoard for your selfish wants is something you deny a needy poor. “God wants you to study in Berkeley.” I doubt that since you got the scholarship to study in Singapore (it’s a sign). You really need to turn to the bible and understand what Jesus Christ would have chosen.
P.S. My guess is that you will give more excuses to justify to yourself. I tried lol
hahaha…vic, good one. i went to a friends church once out of invitation and a pastor asked me that too. i think i pissed him off by saying my purpose of living was for a Porsche. he stormed away without giving me a 2nd look…..lol. subsequently i ran out of the church because they were having converting session where pastors talk to Non-Christians. can you imagine they actually said “Non-Christian on the left bench, Christians on the right bench” and i was like “oh shit!, time to go”….LOL….nimalan how are you? hahaha dont try guessing you might get a headache.
Djian spill.Who are you
And guest stop quoting the bible for every little thing. It has to evolve with modern times, your understanding towards the bible. It is completely stupid to say someone should give up all but what he needs to others, when he has worked so hard to lead a better than normal life.
And on what Djian said about his visit to Church, no offence Ernie, but I find Christianity to be the MOST insecure religion of all.
For some reason I thought Nimalan was a Christian all along. =S
Here’s something for you us to go figure. Just 2 statements… I’m not saying anything else. haha
1. Galileo was crucified because he said the Earth revolves around the Sun.
2. Christians related Darwin’s Theory of Evolution not only on humans but on all animals as the work of the devil. Writing numerous books with a picture of the snake as its front cover. And look at where we are now as well?
@Nimalan: No, we are not bogged down with referring everything to God. We are most secure when we rely on God. God promised us NOT a life without trouble, but strength to brave through troubled times. I respect your belief. It is your choice.
@djian: I’m glad to hear that you have lived a good life without religion. Yes vic, not all pastors are corrupted, and yes, it is true. I respect your choice to remain with no religion.
@vic: We rely on God and the Bible always, because God NEVER fails us, and the Bible is one way that God speaks through us (though not the only way) although I must point out that the Bible is not the Word of God. (It is the word of God. Note the capitals.) Jesus is the Word of God. Hence, Jesus is infallible, perfect, but the Bible is NOT infallible. Well, it is, if used with discernment, but as can be seen in the discussion here, the Bible can be misquoted or used out of context, and knowledge, without love, is destructive.
On your point 2., there is currently no proof of Evolution. We are taught with no evidence of it.
Now for something light-hearted. I quote my friend, with paraphrase: “[You believe you evolved from monkey.] Sure, go ahead! I was created by God! XD”
@Guest: I will admit that my critical thinking ability is not as good as yours. Not that I care. You can gloat about having critical thinking ability all you want. You have misused the Bible, and I can correct you, but you would, in your own word, “give more excuses to justify to yourself” that Ern Sheong is twisted. We can go on forever but I have no intention to argue.
Ern Sheong’s blog is there for him to reflect his thoughts. If you don’t like the way he thinks, you are free to comment, but don’t fuel it into argument please. God bless you. =)
@Ern Sheong: Please mate, no point in arguing. These people have their beliefs set that nothing you do, except prayer, will be able to change them. Let’s cool down from these arguments ya? Let’s respect their choice.
Ome: No evidence of evolution you say? Please go read up more about biology because evolution does exist. Adaptation does exist. How you think new strains of virus appear every now and then? Magic? Or are you going to tell me that God made them appear magically? When further studied most ‘new strain’ of viruses are related to those found in the past.
As for evolution of humans, there is currently no solid proof of it yet. The closest relative we have is so far Homo Afarensis. However there are still missing links in it.
Christians did not just dislike the idea of evolution of humans back when Darwin came up with the theory of it. In face they dislike the whole theory.
Here’s just one of the many evidence of evolution. This one’s on whales with limbs that are non functional and left behind as they were once land dwelling creatures.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE4D91731F931A25754C0A966958260&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/mpm/struthers.html
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/mpm/mpm_whale_limb.html
@Ome,
Ome, I did no mean that all Christians are bogged down referring ALL things to God . I meant most do refer most things to him always, like everything has to involve him. I mean I’m sure he does give us a free rein at times, and doesn’t play us like puppets
As for the insecurity issue, you yourself have prove my point. in your comment ‘nothing but prayer can change them’. I ask the question, WHy the hell must we change? Why must 100 percent of the world be Christians. What makes Christianity the only path to heaven and the rest lead to well torture? Is it because it’s the oldest? No thats Hindhuism I believe? Is it coz its the latest? Nope thats Islam. Is it coz it’s the only one which prays directly to God? Nope as I understand it you’ll pray to the son. Is it because you’ll are the most united? Nope, as far as I can understand, Christianity has been divided too so many different ’sects’ that I can’t keep up.
Other reasons why I find it insecure:
a)People constantly coming up to us in public asking us to join their church and find salvation. Geez , do I have the word ‘Headed to Hell painted on my forehead’?
b)This lady I saw in UK who kept marching up and down the street chanting’ Follow Christ or go to Hell’.Well not exactly that but along that lines. I mean geez ,you” think in modern times, people will accept that God wont send the majority of population to hell just because we don’t go to church .And no this is not an isolated,undeucated case.
c)And just in case anyone combats this by saying that Muslims are more insecure based on the jihad waged by Al=Qaeda now, lets remeber the Crusades.
I’m not anti-Christ. I’m really not.Sure I doint’ believe in him. Sure I’ve read DAVinci Code, and wondered, about how most of it is true, the paintings,the events and whether Dan Brown’s conclusion may in fact be true. BUT , I respect other people’s beliefs. I respect that fine people may believe in the Church and all and that’s your choice.Freedom of choice. I just get mad,annoyed when certain Christians act as though its Christianity and nothing else, its Jesus or endless torture. ?After all can you really say you are an advocate of freedom of religion, when you think people who dont choose what you choose will end up in Hell or you keep wanting to change them?
@Guest: What do you mean “lol i tried”? You wanted to be a Christian or was a Christian and someone like you right shot you everywhere with bible verses just as you are doing to me now? You seem to know a lot about bible verses. Remember that the devil is also very well versed in the bible. He tempted Jesus with Bible verses as well. So be careful because the Bible can be used for both causes, good and evil. Let me say also that critical thinking and debate will not be able make you a believer, there will always be questions left unanswered. We live by faith and are spiritual beings.
I will not justify myself. You can have your opinions and live your own life, I can have mine. I sincerely believe that this is the path that I should take. You cannot say that just because I got a scholarship to Singapore God is telling me to go there and I am disobeying Him by going to Berkeley. Indeed, with few exceptions, every ASEAN JC Scholar from a good JC gets admitted to a Singapore Uni with a Scholarship. Refer to this prophecy post: http://ernsheong.com/2008/01/25/prophesies/. I am at peace with my intentions. God has shown me a way that I should go. Yes I plan my path, but God directs me, and I feel that this is the way for me.
@djian: there are many churches, church practices and church leaders that do not really show themselves to be good examples of Christianity. while that is true, the believer should always be careful because it has been warned in the bible that we are living in dangerous times, so we also need to apply wisdom to our decisions in choosing a church. personally i have been to many churches already for many many many years and 2 years ago i settled on the right one. so go and find a suitable church for you and stay rooted there and serve Him there.
@Vic: About the theory of evolution: although i am not a well-versed person on this subject, I have read something about it and it has been shown that there are many inadequacies in the theory. To be frank, while I do not agree that Humans came from Apes, there are things in evolution and adaptation which I think do not contradict the the notion that God created Man and the living creatures. God may have placed in living beings the ability to evolved and adapt naturally over the course of centuries. So no contradiction in my opinion. And also one argument that atheists have yet to overcome is how life came into existence. So what or WHO gave life to everything? Random chance? Calculations have shown that it is rather absurd that everything that we see right now (the earth, the universe, the stars, living beings) happened by chance. Scientists have spoken that it is really impossible that all these things happened by chance. So now the theory of Intelligent Design is getting more credibility, where God is the Intelligent Being who created all these things. Until now, atheist and scientists have not found any way to create the complex life that we see today from a bunch of chemicals. The notion God did not created life is simply implausible. God gave life to all.
@Nim: I also don’t really like it when some Christians go to the streets and tell people right in the face that if they do not repent and believe in Jesus they will go to hell. To me it is not the right way, but rather it is the best way to turn people off about Christianity. So I agree with you on this, that I don’t really like to tell people directly either. The other way is to just love people, as Jesus did, and this should be the model way.
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So at the end of the day the conclusion is that you have the free will to choose, and also do bear in mind that every choice has consequences. Even if you do not agree with everything about Christianity, do not close your minds to this. I pray that one day God will speak to you and lead you to Him. That’s all I can do. It is not by arguments and works that saves you, but by grace through faith.
Many of your arguments are very highly pointed out by the non-Christian community. I recommend reading The Case for Jesus Christ, The Case for a Creator and The Case for Faith by Lee Strobel as a starting point in your investigations. It is a journey, and I can only say that the journey will be well worth it. Hopefully you can decide on the truth in the end, but please do find out more instead of just thinking that you know it all and close your minds to anything you are not accustomed to, i.e. Christianity
Many people come to Christ because they had really really bad backgrounds and they want a renewed life, a renewed hope. And Jesus Christ redeems them and give them a new hope. Most Christians are not Christians because they know it all, or have read all the Christian debates like this post here and made their own conclusion. God can be experienced. He is not only available through intellect. Experience Him.
Ernie: Success is probably better defined as whether you felt life was fulfilling. It has nothing to do with potential; if it had, everyone is a failure since they failed to attain their fullest potential. Call me an optimist, I prefer to see everyone as successful in their own way, but only if they themselves see their lives as such.
To those busybodies out there… People who talk more know less. I implore thee, stop imposing your opinions on others. You guys mention about evangelists as one of your “grudges” against Christianity. Please do not lower yourselves to their level. And, if you are curious, I am an atheist (according to Dawkings, anyway).
Ernsheong:
I think there’s something that I’ve forgotten to mention. I do believe that there’s a higher level of being. But not the God in Christianity. I just don’t understand how an all powerful God can allow so much poverty among innocent people. And to judge those innocent people who are Muslim and have a kind heart to go to hell just because they don’t believe in Christ? The bible did state that only through christ can our sins be cleansed and enter the kingdom of God right? You can’t blame them for not believing in Christ. A human mind can be brainwashed easily if they’re brought up a different way from young.
I just simply cannot accept those. I prefer to believe in a powerful being who still have to abide by some rules. Because of those rules He is unable to satisfy everyone. That’s what i prefer to believe and not always ‘God has a reason for everything’ or ‘This tough ordeal is a test from God’ or ‘It might be blessing in disguise from God’.
Interesting discussion here and coming from a person who tries to be as neutral as possible when it comes to religion, “The Case For A Creator” is a great critical thinking exercise! It’s fun to spot all the logical fallacies committed in the book! Take KI!
To add on to the discussion, I would like to point out that a belief does not have to be objectively true for people to believe in it. It could be that a certain belief provides comfort in the unknown, and that is why people believe in it. So for me, as long as religion works for you, by all means believe in it and craft yourself an excellent life.
On the other hand, if you find it to be a belief-system with one too many contradictions, maybe you just to get out there and look for something else to believe in, but still go live a wonderful life anyway. (:
Grah… I hit the backspace button while typing all my replies… all disappeared, now I have to retype everything. T_T
@Nimalan: The statement, although made publicly, is meant for Ern Sheong. I am not obliged to explain or defend it. If it offended you, I am sorry. If you believe what Christianity says is not true, you are free to believe that. Why ask?
As for a, b and c, I share your sentiments, and you will be surprised at my take on evangelism. I don’t believe in street evangelism, and there is more to salvation than simply condemning a person, leading a person through a sinner’s prayer by emotional impulse. Such thing is self-serving or church-serving, and I don’t know if you believe this, but God griefs over it. I must point out however, that simply because Christianity is not spared from division and existence of false beliefs, this does not make true Christianity invalid. You don’t judge false Christianity, let God do that.
As for referring so many things to Him, one unique quality of a Christian is a God-centered life. God is our Lord, our King, you see. Of course He doesn’t dictate every single petty decision (like what to eat, drink, wear, go for shopping, bleh) but being Oh, and let me add, you can live a Christian life fine without heeding God, that is, after salvation, you have your own plan blah blah blah yes, you can go off and do that and God won’t love you any less. We surrender our will to God because we know that since He is God, He knows better than us what is best for us. Hence, no, life as a Christian is not a puppet’s life.
@Vic: We are talking about human evolution here. Still waiting for evidence. =) Of course, we don’t believe in the evolution theory (human one, I mean) simply because it contradicts with what the Bible says, and it is, again, belief, just as you, in faith, believe that the evolution theory is true and one day this will be proven.
Answer to tough questions:
Why does an all-powerful God allow so much poverty among innocent people?
Why doesn’t an all-powerful God display Himself and show that He is real?
Why does an all-powerful God allow false religions?
Why does an all-powerful God allow occult magic or satanic practices? (Yes, they do exist!)
Why does a loving God allows Hell to exist?
My attempt to answer: God is love. Since He loves us, He gives humanity free choice to believe whatever we decide to, and He respects your decision. We Christians believe that Hell is God reluctantly granting some human’s wishes to be separated from Him (or to live without Him.) He can, of course, reveal Himself to us and display fireworks to make it obvious, but that would rob you of choice to believe or not to believe, and that would compromise His loving character. The same goes for false religions, satanic practices and occult magic. God allows you to choose, and you take the consequences.
(At this point, I don’t understand why people who are not Christians get offended with Christianity. Surely you know what you believe, and you know the consequences. As in, the consequences that you believe in, not what we say.)
As for suffering, hurt, poverty, and all the bad things that are occurring in the world, rest assured that God’s heart aches for all of us, whether you believe it or not. These circumstances, however, can be used for His purposes in drawing people to Him, to know that He alone is sufficient. As I am writing this, I see God has a point. You see, God would rather that you suffer now, be drawn to Him and enjoy eternal life with Him rather than have a blissful life now (and assume life is okay without God) and spend eternity in Hell.
Why does a person with kind heart go to Hell on the count that he does not believe in Christ?
My attempt to answer: That is because God is crisp clear in the Bible that ALL humans are sinners. Even the most seemingly good people on earth sin. If not in actions or words, in thoughts, and none of these escape God. Think about it, you find yourself thinking sinfully before you even realize it. We are sinners by nature. How did we become so screwed? Read the Book of Genesis. I don’t like it this way. Well, as Pastor Rick Warren said, “This is not in your control.” Hence, it is clear that all who do not believe in Christ (including Christians who do not repent!) are destined for Hell, regardless of how “good” they are, because on the contrary to our moral standards, which usually allows grey area for us God’s standard is perfect.
What about people who believe in other religions from young?
My attempt to answer: If they have heard the Gospel, it is their choice to take it or reject it. If they die without knowing the Gospel, God might have an alternative way of dealing with them, but that’s not our concern, since we already know the Gospel. As previously a devout Buddhist for eighteen years, I was exposed to Jesus since Primary 1, and the Gospel since Sec 3, I have always rejected it, up until last year. Trust me, it took faith to take God’s hands and to let go of the stigma that Thais are Buddhists, but once I took that step of faith, it became clear to me why Jesus is the only way. Religious backgrounds do not prevent people from conversion, people’s hardened hearts or ignorance do. In Thailand, I have a Pastor, who was formerly a devout Muslim. I trust that you know Muslim’s attitude towards becoming an ex-Muslim.
Why isn’t God like this, like that, like [insert rules here]?
My attempt to answer: God is, well, God. If we humans define Him, well, He wouldn’t be God. God is not the same as deity concept in Chinese religions. (You give them something then they give you something in return.) It’s not the way God works. In fact, I must point out that trying to control God is akin to us trying to play God, and that is mankind’s original sin.
Trust me, when we say ‘God has a reason for everything’ or ‘This tough ordeal is a test from God’ or ‘It might be blessing in disguise from God’, it is not delusional escapist attitude. (Well, depends on how the statements are used anyway.) God responds to our needs on His own timing, which might be slow to our measure, but either way, God never fails us. I’m sorry if such simple statement dumbfounds you.
Wow, I’m sorry, this is going to offend people a lot but it’s okay. Hope I clear some misconceptions. Of course, if you stand uncorrected, there is nothing I can do.
@Kevin Chan: As I said, it is your choice. That’s why I don’t understand why people itch at people who are zealous for God when there are people who are zealously atheist or zealously agnostic or zealously dunno-what.
As for the logical fallacies, well, we are all imperfect humans.
@ome: thanks for addressing some things here =)
I must say i have learnt a lot from reading all these replies! Ultimately, I believe it all boils down to faith - whether one has experience something so compelling for him to believe in a religion. In my opinion, discussions like this and even those by ‘experts’ are full of logical fallacies and inconsistencies. Maybe we can never ever reach a consensus on the authencity of christianity through intellectual discourses. BUT, i do feel that there is an ultimate truth out there (be it one with God or without). Thus, i cant agree with Kevin Chan. Seems to me that one who take that kind of view is making an easy escape from difficult questions. E.g. If christianity really turns out to be the truth then people who try to ‘craft an excellent life” away from the truth are really devoiding themselves of eternal life in heaven. Religions make too many too serious assertions about morality, life after death, etc. that it seems illogical not to try come to a final conclusion.
Just some food for thought
@JW: As much as some humans attempt to suppress it, we are religious at the core. We want to know if there is something beyond what we can see. We want to find out our purpose in life. We want to ask what happens beyond death. We want explanation for things that we cannot explain. We want to know why the heck do people have moral values. Why is there such thing as right or wrong. We question the existence of a force that can turn an event with a possibility of occurring of 0.001 to reality. We ask all the tough questions.
Out of the non-Christians here, I admire your quest to find answer to all these questions, JW. All the best on your journey to find the answers. =)